An Interview with A.T. Jensen
Ariel Baska sat down with Danish director Anders Thomas Jensen to discuss his new film, Riders of Justice, starring Mads Mikkelsen and Nikolaj Lie Kaas. What follows is a transcript of their conversation from February 3rd, 2021 at the International Film Festival of Rotterdam.
Ariel Baska
My name is Ariel Baska, and I'm from Ride the Omnibus podcast.
AT Jensen
Hi.
Ariel Baska
I wanted to take a minute to first of all say thank you for agreeing to come on. And I wanted to thank you for this film that is a very interesting film in terms of the way that it looks at coincidence, in sort of a comic and tragic way. It's almost like Kieślowski’s Blind Chance in the very end of it. You know, the way that it ends with riding off on the bicycle kind of surprised me quite a bit. I wonder if you had anything to say about that?
AT Jensen
Well, I haven't seen that Kieślowski film so I don't know. But it's a nice way to wrap the story up. That's it? The whole, of course, there's a bit of irony in it. Right? That it’s? That it's because you have a story where coincidence and faith battle with each other. So there's a little irony in that. But apart from that, it's technically just a nice way to end the story. On Christmas Eve, because it's a story about family in the end coming together. And it's a story about finding out what the meaning of life is. And the film suggests that probably the best thing you can do is to surround yourself with family and the ones you love. And where would you do that better than on Christmas Eve? So that's the point of that.
Ariel Baska
And sort of accept the chaos of life.
AT Jensen
Accept that you are in control of nothing, that everything is just coincidences, and that there is absolutely no meaning other than doing that other than love.
Ariel Baska
It's so interesting, too, because the other motifs in the film, like revenge is clearly a self destructive maneuver, it doesn't actually go anywhere productive. And so I think that's wonderful, that you have this sense at the end that you have no control. But in terms of balancing this space between crime and comedy throughout the film, how did you achieve the tonal balance?
AT Jensen
Well, from the very start, I said to the actor playing Otto, Nikolaj Lie Kaas, I told him that he is the most important thing in this film because he is the glue that sort of ties the two worlds together. Because on the one hand, you have Mads Mikkelsen's character and his daughter, who are almost totally realistic. They could be in a drama that runs on Sunday night on every TV channel around the world. On the other hand, you have the two nerds, Emmenthaler and Lennart, the computer geeks that are very much part of my old universe, very dark and very twisted comedy characters. And then in between you have this character Otto who has the really tragic backstory, but he is also a comic character. But he's not in the same sense comic as the other two, and he is the glue. He can move into scenes with Mads / Markus and his daughter that are actually touching scenes where it's very emotional, and he can move into very comical scenes in the other. So he's the one who makes us believe that these characters are in the same film. I worked a lot with him. And then when I had two really good editors who kept editing the jokes away from Otto's character because we could see that every time we made him less funny, the emotions just stood out more. So it was very much in the editing that this balance was found, actually.
Ariel Baska
And Nikolai Lie Kaas is such a wonderful actor to be able to play both sides. And in terms of the writing process: did you know the cast you had when you started writing?
AT Jensen
I didn't know I had them. But I always write for them. I always think of some actors when I write initially. And sometimes you get them. Sometimes you don't. But I had Mads and Nikolai in my thoughts as I set out to write. So, yeah, I knew that. And very early on, I also brought them on board. Before I even sent (the script) to any producer or anything, I did. I let them read the script and took some notes and actually did a rewrite before. So they've been very much part of the collaboration from the very beginning.
Ariel Baska
And what was that process like with the two of them?
AT Jensen
Well, they’re great actors, very experienced. And we've worked together so many times now. They're so strong - the psychology of their own characters. So it's just for me, as a writer, it's just a gift to just sit down and make a reading. And just hear the thoughts and and just check in. It’s very, very rarely we disagree on major issues. That happens, but it's not very often. And when we do, I'm always right. No, but it's just a pleasure, also, because we're friends. We know each other. It's always nice to be back. And yeah, like doing it again. It's like a reunion of an old school class.
Ariel Baska
Now, that's wonderful, especially knowing all the projects you've worked on together. And in terms of the theme of grief that the film opens with, how did you decide how you were going to break that initially?
AT Jensen
Break it?
Ariel Baska
I mean, because of the way that you immediately go into the events of the train situation, and then explore the theme of therapy in a comedic way. Why was grief so important in this script?
AT Jensen
Well, you could say that grief is a shocker, but it's actually more of a plot point than it is a character point. You could also argue Markus is already suffering from PTSD. So you could actually just have sent him home. And you could still have the same psychological story unfold: A man comes home and he's not able to relate to his daughter. But from a plot point of view, you need something for him to take the wrong path of revenge. There had to be something to avenge. And that's why I threw in the train accident. I wouldn't say grief. I mean the whole point of him is it's a man who rejects grief, you know. His daughter, she moves into grief. And he keeps telling her to count to 500 and forget everything and move on with life. But Otto has some grief that he's been living with his whole life. But the whole point of Markus is that he's not taking it in. He's not really taking in her death. Only in the very end, where he discovers that revenge wasn't the way, that’s where he actually begins to check in and says that she's gone. She's dead. That's where his grief starts.
Ariel Baska
It’s interesting to me, especially, given the daughter says that he's already just sitting in the bar and staring into space like a vegetable.
AT Jensen
He's already damaged. He is psychological. You could say that he’s hiding. We don't say where he is. But wherever he is stationed as a soldier, he’s actually hiding from his own problems and from his family, from his daughter, from his wife. He is a man who was lost from the very beginning. That his wife was killed is actually just something that builds on top of his already fragile situation.
Ariel Baska
And Mads’ performance makes that very explicit and clear.
AT Jensen
Yeah, He's good. He's so good. As always.
Ariel Baska
And what what do you feel is the main thing that you want people to take away from this film other than a bicycle and hugging their families on Christmas Eve?
AT Jensen
Well, basically, people should hug their families on Christmas Eve and on other evenings. Because I do believe that almost everybody at a certain point in life starts looking for this meaning of it all. Why are we here? Is this really it? Is there something I could have done different? And you start to look for more. And some people can go and find it in alcohol and pills and religion and revenge, I guess for a short while. But, truly, I do believe that the best - I’m not saying it’s the only way - but the best way to find it is to to surround yourself with the ones you love and your family. Anyway, that's the closest I've come to something that resembles a meaning for life. The rest, I think you tend to become disappointed if you go down the other paths.
Ariel Baska
Well, I want to thank you so much for your time.
AT Jensen
Thank you.
Ariel Baska
Thank you for this film, and I wish you a lovely festival.
AT Jensen
Thank you very much. Thank you. Bye.
